[RADIOLAB INTRO]

LULU MILLER: The place I really want to start is I wonder if you can tell me about all the different ways a galaxy can die.

CHARITY WOODRUM: Okay, so a galaxy can die or "quench" in a variety of different ways. For example ...

LULU: Wait, I'm already gonna stop you, because that word, "quench" ...

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah.

LULU: Does that mean, like, galaxy dimming? Galaxy dying?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah. We call it death, in kind of a way, or a dimming of sorts. Yeah.

LULU: Got it.

CHARITY WOODRUM: So I would define it as any process that prevents star formation from happening.

LULU: Okay.

CHARITY WOODRUM: And for stars to form you need cold, dense gas.

LULU: Hmm.

CHARITY WOODRUM: You can think of cold, dense gas—mostly hydrogen—as the fuel for star formation.

LULU: Okay, and so ways that the galaxy quenches is when the stars can't get that fuel?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah, exactly.

LULU: So, like, what makes that fuel not get there?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Well, for example, the supermassive black holes that exist in the center of every massive galaxy, those supermassive black holes can heat up that gas. Or the supermassive black holes can have these jets that'll actually expel the gas outside of the galaxy completely into the intergalactic space.

LULU: Okay. So then the stars just kinda starve?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah. And that's a term that actually is used in galaxy quenching. It's called "starvation."

LULU: Oh.

CHARITY WOODRUM: Because some of this cold gas can come into the galaxy from what we call the cosmic web.

LULU: Okay.

CHARITY WOODRUM: And if that process gets shut off for some reason, then we call that "starvation."

LULU: So it's like it could get pushed out from the inside or it just stops coming in?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah, exactly.

LULU: Huh!

CHARITY WOODRUM: There's starvation, strangulation. Yeah, I'm not sure why these words are so violent. I feel like we could have come up with better ones.

LULU: The current scientific thinking is that there are at least eight ways that a galaxy can die. That's the theory. But Charity Woodrum has spent her career actually looking, trying to observe the physical processes that make them dim and sputter out.

LULU: I'm Lulu Miller, and today on Radiolab we have a story of something almost mythic that Charity observed in the darkness, something I didn't know could happen in space, something Charity never expected to see. Something that would nudge science forward in its understanding of how galaxies evolve, and something that would end up nudging her forward, ever so slightly, through an unthinkable loss.

LULU: How did you get interested in this, like, morbid branch of—of astrophysics?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Should I start with all the way back to how I got involved in astronomy in general, or just ...

LULU: Yeah. Take us all the way back. How the heck did you end up studying how galaxies die?

CHARITY WOODRUM: So I grew up in rural Oregon in a small town called Canyonville. When you grow up in a rural area like that you get to see the Milky Way. And so being under the dark night sky certainly affected me. And it was certainly a place of peace for me growing up.

LULU: Was it contrast to, like, in the house? In the school? Anything like that?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah, I would definitely say that there was chaos at home. Both of my parents at one time were addicted to some type of drug. My dad—I think one of the words people would use to describe him would be "violent." And I think as a distraction I would go out and look up at the night sky, just be in the back yard, just walking into the grass and laying down in the grass, sometimes with a sleeping bag, you know, under the trees, and just looking up at the night sky.

LULU: Hmm.

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah. I was thinking a lot about how big the universe is, and how even though I was in my small town, that the world was a lot bigger, the universe was a lot bigger, and there was just more out there to explore. At a young age, I asked one of my middle school teachers what I could do to work for NASA someday, and he laughed at me.

LULU: Like, a cruel ...?

CHARITY WOODRUM: It was like a chuckle. I don't think he was trying to be cruel, because at the time it didn't make sense to me. I was the valedictorian of our high school. But, you know, looking back, my graduating class only had 17 people. And he also knew my family history. Neither of my parents graduated high school. And just—you know, we grew up in a very low-income area. And so I think he was seeing all of that.

LULU: Hmm.

CHARITY WOODRUM: There were no other scientists in that town. A lot of the jobs would either be logging or going to nursing school. But I had never heard about a scientist before.

LULU: Hmm.

CHARITY WOODRUM: At the time I was like, "Okay, I—I don't know how to do this thing."

LULU: So then what do you—what do you end up going on to study? What's the next chapter?

CHARITY WOODRUM: So once I graduated high school, my biggest goal, I guess, was to escape poverty. And I became a registered nurse. But once I started working as a nurse, I couldn't handle the emotional toll of it, just seeing human suffering on a daily basis. Like, an older person not getting visited, or even—you know, once a week there would be something absolutely catastrophic that you would see. And I found myself just thinking about it all the time, and it was really affecting my daily life. So at the time, Jayson, what would be my future husband, one of his coping mechanisms was to read books. He read, you know, hundreds of books a year.

LULU: Whoa!

CHARITY WOODRUM: And yeah, he was like, "Why don't you pick up some books? Maybe that will get your mind off of it." I started picking up popular science books by, you know, like, Carl Sagan and Stephen Hawking and started reading about those. There's a particular image, actually, itself, that's one of the main reasons that I went back to school to study physics. It's called the Hubble Deep Field and ...

LULU: The Hubble Deep Field. Okay.

CHARITY WOODRUM: I encountered it in one of those books, and basically this image, how it was made was they found the darkest part of the sky. So as far as we knew there was nothing there. And some astronomer said, "Why don't we point the Hubble Space Telescope at this dark patch of sky for 10 days?" Which was a very kind of bold and crazy move, because Hubble Space Telescope time is very precious and expensive. And some people thought nothing would be there. Like, why point it in complete darkness? And yeah, they—they used Hubble to stare at this dark place in the sky for 10 whole days. And then the image that came back had thousands of galaxies in it. Thousands.

LULU: Thousands?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yes.

LULU: You can easily pull this image up. Just google "The Hubble Deep Field."

LULU: It looks like someone threw glitter on a black floor and there's, like, some bigger pieces that feel closer. And there's all different colors. I see greens and yellows and oranges and blues and whites. And so are each one of those dots a galaxy?

CHARITY WOODRUM: If it's very bright and has those spikes around it, it's a star with ...

LULU: Okay.

CHARITY WOODRUM: ... you know, a star in between us and those galaxies. But everything else is—is an entire galaxy.

LULU: Wow!

LULU: She said you could also see where the dying ones are.

CHARITY WOODRUM: There's some red orb galaxies in there.

LULU: Oh, there are?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah, yeah.

LULU: Oh, they—are they, like, these orange-y ones?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah, they're really red. We call them quiescent galaxies when—when they're red and dead like that.

LULU: Oh, quiescent like—like quiet or dormant? Like, it's there ...

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah.

LULU: ... but it's not making new stuff.

CHARITY WOODRUM: Right. Exactly. And so I was just sitting there staring at that image. Each of those galaxies has billions of stars, and each of those stars, we think, has at least one planet.

LULU: Wow!

CHARITY WOODRUM: …And I don't know, it kind of gave me the feeling that I got as a kid laying under the night sky. And it also just kind of calmed me. I wasn't thinking about that human suffering that I was seeing on a daily basis. I was actually nine months pregnant when I walked into an academic counselor at the University of Oregon and said, "Hey, I'm a registered nurse, but I want to go back to school for physics."

LULU: Wow! [laughs]

CHARITY WOODRUM: He looked at me like I was crazy, a little bit. But around the time when I was pregnant with my son, I was thinking about, you know, what type of person I wanted to be for him because I wanted him to pursue his biggest dreams, and I felt the only way to do that was to pursue mine.

LULU: And how was that gonna work? What was Jayson doing?

CHARITY WOODRUM: He had a soil company business. He would literally sell dirt to people. He loved soil. That was his big passion, because he loved, you know, reading about all the bacteria in the soil and how it was alive and all of that. And so we always made the joke that whenever he was looking down I was looking up.

LULU: Oh.

CHARITY WOODRUM: So at first, you know, I have a new baby now and I'm starting my first term. And so I wanted it to be a little bit easier and only be gone away from Woody for, you know, an hour or two a day. I didn't want to be away from him for too long.

LULU: Wait. Was Woody—was Woody short for anything? Or Woody is ...

CHARITY WOODRUM: No. Yeah, that was his given name.

LULU: So okay, Woody's—Woody's a little baby.

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah. And on the first day of class, I met Dr. Scott Fisher, who was an astrophysicist. And he—you know, he wasn't Stephen Hawking or Carl Sagan. He was, like, a normal person that had this job that I—and that was the first time I realized, like, "Oh, I could actually have a job in this field."

LULU: You—you have a job, you've got healthcare, you have a salary!

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah.

LULU: And you get to think about this stuff.

CHARITY WOODRUM: Exactly. I was, like, "Okay, that's what I want to do now." So after taking that first day of class in Dr. Fisher's class, I started bugging him every day. And I would just go to his office and ask him if I could join his research group. And he would be like, "You know, my research group is full. Come back later." So I'd be like, "Okay." Come back a week later.

LULU: A week later?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah. I was really annoying. And so he said, "You know what?" His boss had a research project for a student, and so she asked if he had any students, and he was like, "Well, there's this one girl that won't give up, so let's go with her." So—and she worked in the field of galaxy evolution.

LULU: The research group was Charity and three other undergrads, and they called themselves "the cosmic wolfpack." And together they taught themselves how to read the flickers in the sky, how the blue ones were newborns, and the red ones were dying. She said they'd often get yelled at for squealing too loud when some new image came back showing galaxies with beautiful colors or shapes, clusters. And ...

CHARITY WOODRUM: Almost every weekend over the summers, I would go up to Pine Mountain Observatory, giving people tours of the night sky with one of the bigger telescopes up there. And Jayson and Woody would camp, and before Woody's bedtime, they would be in the dome with me as I was talking about the night sky, and then they would go sleep in the tent and wait for me to get done—which would, you know, be much later ...

LULU: Yeah.

CHARITY WOODRUM: ... much past Woody's bedtime.

LULU: Yeah.

CHARITY WOODRUM: The first year, I would have to go back to breastfeed him quite often. So I actually would have to shut down the dome and say, "I can hear my baby crying in the distance. He's hungry." And so I would go feed him and then come back.

LULU: Oh, in the sleeping bag just, like, cozied up?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah. [laughs] So this must have been when he was around two years old. There had been a lot of cloudy nights, all in a row. And we stepped onto the porch one time and it was a clear night sky. And he looked at me and he said, "Oh thank you, mom." I said, "For what?" And he said, "For turning the stars on." So he thought that ...

LULU: Aww.

CHARITY WOODRUM: ... when I was giving people tours of the night sky, that I was the one that turned the stars on at night, I guess. And I looked at Jayson and he was crying.

LULU: Was it like a battle with Jayson? Was Jayson like, "Woody, look at the soil!" And you were like, "Woody, look at the stars." And you won?

CHARITY WOODRUM: No. I would say it was quite equal, because Jayson loved vegetable gardening, and so Woody was often in the garden with Jayson. And they would come inside to eat lunch and then leave again, back to go gardening. And I knew where they sat because there would be four little piles of dirt from where they had sat down. Yeah. Yeah, he was—they were both very sweet.

LULU: At what point do you learn about rejuvenation in this story?

CHARITY WOODRUM: So that happened when I was in my second to third year of graduate school.

LULU: And can I just ask, like, for setting in time, is this before or after the worst day?

CHARITY WOODRUM: This is after the worst day. So the worst day happened my junior year in the physics program.

LULU: Okay. So I guess, for chronology, maybe we—we do this to the degree that you want to—however you want to talk about it.

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah.

LULU: Do you want to take a break first? Do you want to just plow through? How do you wanna go?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Let me take a sip of water real quick, and then I will.

LULU: Yeah.

LULU: We'll be back in a moment.

LULU: I guess, just can you say what happened on January 15, 2017?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah. So it was a long weekend, and me and my son and husband decided to take a mini vacation to the Oregon coast. And it was especially sunny on the Oregon coast for it being wintertime. And a lot of people that are not from the Pacific Northwest might not know about this, but there's these things called "sneaker waves." And we were walking along the beach, and the water would come up to the same place every single time. And I was walking a little bit ahead of them, and one of those sneaker waves, you know, hit them and—and—and swept them out to sea.

CHARITY WOODRUM: My memory, you know, fades in and out on that day. I eventually found myself in an ambulance. And my eyes were closed, and I felt a banging on my head. And I woke up and realized I was hitting myself in the head saying, you know, "Wake up. This can't be real." And, you know, then I realized it's getting dark outside, and I had heard that the coast guard was gonna call off the search once it got dark. And so then I—I guess I started freaking out, because apparently I jumped out of the ambulance door, through the back, and just started running towards what I thought was the ocean, but I actually didn't see the ocean nearby, didn't know where I was. I'm barefoot. One of the cops, you know, pulls me back into the ambulance. And I guess I did that a couple of times. Yeah, eventually they drove me to the hospital, and I guess I was just screaming a lot and, you know, couldn't—I was just screaming. And so a nurse came up to me and had a pill in her hand. And she said, "Do you want to just fall asleep?" And I took that pill. And I was hospitalized like that for about five days, I believe. I woke up and I realized, you know, it made national news that, you know, Jayson and Woody had been, you know, swept out to sea.

LULU: Is there anything in—in running through the field—was it, like, wanting to find them?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah.

LULU: Was it wanting to join them?

CHARITY WOODRUM: I feel like it was—I was trying to—I realized that they weren't gonna search for them anymore and I wanted to find them. I—I think that was my intention. They took that as me being suicidal. I didn't—I didn't think—I didn't think I was, but I've heard people say that they thought that I wanted to join them. So they sent me to a psych ward, but the next morning I had a—a meeting with the psychiatrist there, or the psychologist—and I said, "I can't be here." There—there was nothing to do. There was—there were books, but I found that I couldn't even read. I would try to read and I couldn't even read.

LULU: Meaning you couldn't make sense of the words? Or you just—it felt too flat?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Like, it didn't—it felt like I—I was reading the words but I wasn't processing them, if that makes sense. It—I've never tried to describe that before. But yeah, I couldn't read the books. And I was afraid to watch any TV, because if a scene of the ocean would come up I would have a panic attack. And so that's what the first week looked like, basically. So after being released from the hospital and—and the psych ward, there's no way I could've walked back into the house that I shared with Woody and Jayson. I went and stayed with close family. And those first few weeks I—I didn't leave the couch, really. I would just lay there. And laying on that couch, I really felt like I could feel the life going out of me, because there was nothing left for me, I felt like.

LULU: Where do you go?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah, so I knew I had to do something, and I knew that laying on that couch wasn't gonna get me that desire to live back. And I remember people close to me, they apparently had this group chat, and they always made sure that one of them was at my house with me at any given time for those first few weeks. And they knew that as a kid I loved school, and thought it would be a good distraction for me, I think. And so they said, "Why don't you go back to school?" And actually, when I told Dr. Fisher that I wanted to go back to school, during that meeting, he was crying. And he said, "You know, your life has turned completely upside down. Nothing's the same. So if you want to come back to the research group, the research group would be exactly the way it was before. This can be the one spot that never changed." Hearing him say that was a huge reason I was able to go back.

CHARITY WOODRUM: But when I went back to school, when people would see me for the first time, their eyes would kind of look like a deer in headlights—like, "Oh no, what do I say to her?" And also, I looked very different. I normally wear a lot of bright colors, but I was wearing the same black hoodie and black leggings every day, and I was 15 pounds lighter. And I think I—I wanted people to see that I was different now. I wasn't the same person I was. But at the same time, seeing their reaction, that was hard.

LULU: So she looked up.

CHARITY WOODRUM: I'm an extragalactic astronomer, so I study galaxies outside of our own. And to do that, to find those distant galaxies, what you have to do is exactly what they did with the Hubble Deep Field. You have to find the darkest part of the sky and look at it. And that's literally what I do is just look in the darkest places and try to find light there.

LULU: She graduates college, starts grad school and keeps looking into the dark, day after day. And when she'd see a faraway sprinkle of galaxies, she'd focus in on the red orbs, the dying ones, the dimming ones, and she'd perform autopsies, trying to figure out whether it had been something from the outside or the inside which caused it to lose its light. Day after day, galaxy after galaxy. And then one day, 1,639 days after the worst day, she saw something odd. She was looking at this one group of eight dimming galaxies.

CHARITY WOODRUM: And they were massive quiescent galaxies.

LULU: Quiescent, which means they were not making new stars, so they're that kind of, like, holding pattern red, slowly dying but still emitting light. Right?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Uh-huh. And getting the data back, the first scientist that looked at these galaxies found that four of the massive quiescent galaxies had cold gas reservoirs and four of them did not.

LULU: Huh!

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah. We do know that cold gas reservoirs are the fuel for star formation.

LULU: And—and so was that at first puzzling? Because you're, like, the whole thing about why they die is, like, it's pushed out or it's heated up, or it's ...

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah.

LULU: ... ejected, or it's—and you're like, "But the food is right there. It's there."

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah, exactly. So why do some of them have the cold gas reservoirs and some of them don't?

LULU: So she started measuring everything she could think of, sort of taking the vitals of those galaxies with cold gas reservoirs. She looked at their metal composition, their growth charts, how they had grown in stars and mass over time.

CHARITY WOODRUM: One of the things that I was able to measure was what's called the star formation history of the galaxy. So think of that as on the Y axis there would be the star formation rate, so how many stars these galaxies are forming per year. And on the X axis you have time.

LULU: Okay.

CHARITY WOODRUM: And so the early star formation history is when they were younger galaxies. Those all looked quite similar, however, in the last billion years, all of the galaxies that had the cold gas reservoirs in the last billion years of the galaxy's life, there was a bump in their star formation. There was this significant amount of what we called secondary star formation episodes or rejuvenation.

LULU: Wait, so meaning, like, these dying, dimming galaxies, the ones that had the gas were making new stars in their place of death?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah.

LULU: What?

CHARITY WOODRUM: [laughs] Yeah. And people had seen rejuvenation before, but I don't know that anyone had seen cold gas reservoirs in massive quiescent galaxies, and saw that they also had rejuvenation episodes.

LULU: Like, you—you saw the—the physical matter of what it takes to come back to life ...

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah.

LULU: ... for a galaxy?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah, exactly.

LULU: Then does it still sputter out? Or does it—could it ever, like, get back into real star formation? Could it ever, like, keep going and get alive again?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah, definitely. That could definitely happen.

LULU: Oh, it could?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah. Just like with the physical processes that can make a galaxy quench, there's physical processes that can make a galaxy rejuvenate as well.

LULU: Broadly speaking, there are four main ways that a galaxy can come back to life. One, it can happen from within; the black hole at its center surges with an unexpected burst of energy that allows new stars to form. The rest of the ways happen from without: a sudden inflow of gas, a huge collision ...

CHARITY WOODRUM: Two galaxies collide and, you know, eventually form one galaxy together.

LULU: Or wildest to me, and what Charity believes caused rejuvenation in the galaxies she was looking at, just a little—boop!

CHARITY WOODRUM: If two galaxies even interact with each other and do, like, a fly-by where they just fly by each other, that little interaction can cause bursts of star formation as well.

LULU: No!

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah. So ...

LULU: And, like, can bring it back to life?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah.

LULU: Just like a drive-by encounter?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah, just like seeing a friend and it, you know, lifts your mood. My childhood best friends, they're the biggest reasons I was—I was able to survive and make it to where I am today. When I was laying on that couch, the people coming over and helping me had no reason to, other than that they loved me. And I don't think a lot of people get to know who those people would be in your life, and I know who they are.

LULU: There was her brother.

CHARITY WOODRUM: He sat me down and told me, you know, me and his wife Gina and the artist, Claire, wrote a song for you and we want to play it for you. They weren't afraid to talk to me about what happened. They just wanted to be there.

LULU: There was the cosmic wolfpack.

CHARITY WOODRUM: You know, they just—yeah, they were exactly what I needed.

LULU: And even random strangers.

CHARITY WOODRUM: A woman online saw my story and she said, "Hey, I don't know how to help you, but I think my friend Lynn can because she's been through something just as, you know, tragic." And so Lynn offered to meet up with me, and we had dinner. She had lost three daughters and a husband, and so I felt like just being around her felt like it was the first person that could understand what I was going through. And we would be at dinner publicly crying, and—and talking to each other about our grief. And then she would invite me to events, and at these events she would be laughing and full of life to the point where everyone in the room wanted to be around her because of it.

LULU: Hmm.

CHARITY WOODRUM: You know, she's like, "Come bike riding with me, come to the opera with me." It was just the first time that I could see that you can carry the heavy grief with you, but you can also still have happiness again, and maybe even hope. She had something that dimmed her light just as much as mine did, but she was able to come back again. And then I would think about the field of galaxy evolution in general, and how when galaxies interact, actually the gas can flow between them, and so gas could flow from a star-forming galaxy to a quenched galaxy and ignite a star formation in that way.

CHARITY WOODRUM: After meeting Lynn, I decided, you know, I needed to find things that gave me joy again, and that I can do astronomy and astrophysics for myself as well as for Woody and Jayson. And I could—you know, I could be happy again and it would actually honor them, because early on in grief, you feel like you have to be sad all the time or something. But that's not gonna honor them. And I think Lynn showed me that. I did find out recently that a colleague lost a loved one in her life. And I reached out to her and said, "You know, hey, the kindness of strangers once helped me through my early days of grief." And we went on a hike, actually a couple days ago.

LULU: Oh.

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah.

LULU: What was it like to be the—the Lynn to her Charity?

CHARITY WOODRUM: It—I mean, it was—it was rewarding. And—and yeah, we're gonna go biking together. So we're doing—I was just kind of was like, okay, what did Lynn do for me? We went on walks, we went on biking trips. And so we're just doing that together, and I'm just trying to listen. And I don't think I'll be as good as Lynn was to me, but maybe it will help her in some way. I look for things that—where I can shine bright for somebody else or, you know, honor the people who shined so bright for me. And that brings me a lot of meaning. And I also think I now have my dream job, you know? I—I work at NASA now. And ...

LULU: Wait, so I'm thinking of the teacher who chuckled.

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah.

LULU: Like, what—how did that come to be? And what do you do at NASA?

CHARITY WOODRUM: I'm working with the James Webb Space Telescope. Right now I'm studying galaxies in the early universe, and I'm studying the stardust in galaxies in the early universe with the James Webb Space Telescope. And guess what? They're in or near the Hubble Deep Field. So this is like a perfect full circle moment for me. Some of the galaxies I'm studying are actually in the Hubble Deep Field, but the data comes from the James Webb Space Telescope. So the newer generation of stars form out of the ashes of the old generations of stars. And so I'm actually studying that—that dust, that stardust, or the ashes if you will, in those early, early galaxies. Yeah. I'm a NASA postdoctoral fellow there.

LULU: Cool! With a badge?

CHARITY WOODRUM: [laughs] Yeah, with a badge.

LULU: It's been what? Seven years? Eight years?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah. Over eight years.

LULU: Yeah. And obviously when you talk about it, like, I can hear the distance, like, or the shield or whatever it is that you have to erect to get through your day and your life.

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah. At first grief is, like, crushing, I would say. And you're learning to carry it, but it crushes you. And as time goes on you're able to carry it better. I have less, you know, random tearfulness episodes, but they still happen. Sometimes it'll happen when I'm driving or doing dishes, for no apparent reason. Sometimes it'll happen and I'll come home and my house is clean—there's not four piles of dirt on the couch. Or, you know, seeing a class of kids that are Woody's age, what he would be now. Things like that, I still get tearful about and it can—it can still happen but I'm just better at carrying it, I guess.

LULU: Do you have, like, a—a memorial place? A special spot?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Well, Woody was never found, but Jayson was found, and that was actually on Valentine's Day of 2017. So Jayson was cremated. So for the longest time I had his ashes in an urn. But I felt like the right thing to do would be to return them to the ocean to be with Woody.

LULU: Aww.

CHARITY WOODRUM: Jayson really loved rivers and the forest, and so I was able to find this river near the ocean, right by the ocean, so I could hear the waves, but I couldn't see them. And it was just this very peaceful place. And I, you know, poured his ashes in the river and they flowed out into the ocean, near where—near where it happened.

LULU: Oh my God, what a beautiful way to ...

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah, my childhood best friends were there that day. And afterwards, they said, you know, that that was—that was magical. Because right as we pulled up and sat down, you couldn't even see anything. It was just all fog. And then suddenly this, like, wind came through and cleared out all the fog and you could see the sun. And it—it was just this very beautiful moment.

LULU: Like, I mean, you study ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Like, you study that poetic idea.

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah.

LULU: Returning to the stars, being made of the stars. And do you think about your evolution as a family, like, the metals and matter of you?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah. I mean, well, like, I'm studying these clouds of gas and dust that are from exploding stars. And so eventually we'll be part of the same cloud of gas and dust again, and maybe we'll forge inside the same star again.

LULU: The thing that led me to you, actually, was a tweet that you put out. And it said, "Crying while writing my PhD dissertation about galaxy quenching." And then you wrote, "Which will be dedicated to my late son and late husband." And then you—and then you kind of screenshotted the dedication. Can you read that?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah. "For Woody and Jayson Thomas. From the local universe to the first galaxies, the brightest moments in space and time occurred during our brief epoch together. That light is unquenchable."

LULU: Is it still true for you that—that the brightest moments in space and time for you were—were with them?

CHARITY WOODRUM: Yeah. Definitely. I don't think—I don't think that will ever change. You know, being Woody's mom is the best thing I've ever done.

LULU: Huge thanks to Charity for sharing her story with us. There is a beautiful new documentary about Charity's journey. It just came out, and it's winning all kinds of awards. It's called Space, Hope and Charity. To check it out, schedule a screening and learn more, visit SpaceHopeCharityFilm.com.

LULU: This episode was produced by Jessica Yung. It was sound designed by Dylan Keefe and fact-checked by Diane Kelly. Special thanks to Jad Abumrad and Megan Stielstra.

LULU: Finally, a big special thanks to Charity's brother Michael Woodrum, her sister-in-law Gina Vivona, and the singer Claire Reilly-Roe, who together wrote Charity that song while she was grieving. It's called "Sky Full of Ghosts," and I listened to it easily a hundred times or so while working on this piece. And I wanted to end today by playing it here.

[ARCHIVE CLIP: "Sky Full of Ghosts"]

[LISTENER: Hi. I'm Greta and I'm from Santa Rosa, California. And here are the staff credits. Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad, and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co-hosts. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes: Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gebel, Maria Paz Gutiérrez, Sindhu Gnanasambandan, Matt Kielty, Annie McEwen, Alex Neason, Sarah Qari, Sarah Sandbach, Anisa Vietze, Arianne Wack, Pat Walters, Molly Webster and Jessica Yung. With help from Rebecca Rand. Our fact-checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Anna Pujol-Mazini and Natalie Middleton.]

[LISTENER: Hi, I'm Victor from Springfield, Missouri. Leadership support for Radiolab's science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.]

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